Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Welcome to another episode of serving Q and a Vicky Basinger here, sitting with pastor Michael and pastor Alex. And we are talking through some questions from the sermon series on the golden calf preached on July 25th, 2021. And today we've got a great question and I am going to both of you at this one. So Michael, we're going to start with you. Would God ever let a Christian see his face? We've talked about Moses having that experience with the Lord. So would God ever let a new Testament or new covenant or now Christian see his face? Um, I'm going to go with a likely,
Speaker 2 00:00:43 Probably never most likely. Um, if I were to put a percentage on it, I would probably say there's like a 99.9% chance with a lot of nines at the end of it. I'm not saying it's impossible because God can do whatever he wants. It's not against the rules, et cetera. So I think we have to remember when, when God and Moses were together, they were having conversations. There's a Hebrew euphemism that talked about, they were friends who spoke face to face, but then Moses is like, show me your glory. And God's like, I'm well, that's like, I mean, I can only show you my like, uh, my back and passing go in the cleft of a rock. So there's, it's a euphemism meaning. They spoke with such candor and authenticity to each other in a way that really got, I've never spoken with anybody. Well, you fast forward to the new Testament and you have a couple of interesting circumstances. So you have the apostle John who got visions. The book of revelation was written, but vision is different than the physical kind of presence, you know? Uh, but then you have Paul and Paul has this very strange passage in the book of second Corinthians chapter 12. And what he does is he explains the story of another person that he knows. But as you read, you start to realize, I think you're talking
Speaker 3 00:01:54 About yourself. Um,
Speaker 2 00:01:57 And so I'll read you a little portion of this. Uh, he says this, I know a man in Christ who 14 years ago was caught up into the third heaven, uh, whether in body or out of the body. I do not know God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise, whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know God knows. And he heard things and that cannot be told, which man may not utter. And then he goes on to talk about, uh, how he himself, because of the revelations that he was given, uh, he was allowed to have a messenger of Satan, a thorn in his side, and he asked God, three times, would you take this away from me? And God said, my grace is enough for you. And, and it seems, it seems as you read it and almost every scholar I've ever read on this says, no, this was Paul. This was actually a, an appropriate cultural way of, of being humble about an incredible experience that, that happened to him.
Speaker 1 00:02:48 That I have a friend yeah.
Speaker 3 00:02:51 Through. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:02:51 Like you've I said this in a sermon, I would be lying. But if he says that they kind of understand and then right. And then even the way he talks the thorn in his side, like there was something so potentially a pride building in this experience.
Speaker 4 00:03:05 And he's very careful not to lift himself up about anybody else.
Speaker 2 00:03:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's yeah. He's like he says in verse one of chapter 12, I must go on boasting though. There is nothing to be gained by it. I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. And it's interesting, but then he's like, but I can't post too much. Right.
Speaker 3 00:03:25 Well, let's be honest, Alex, if you got this happened to be,
Speaker 2 00:03:29 I'm like, gosh, I
Speaker 3 00:03:30 Have to let you know that something like this was a real thing that happened. I would call you right away.
Speaker 2 00:03:36 First heavens Scott, second heaven stars, third heaven. It was in the third heaven. It's crazy. And you would say to me what, uh,
Speaker 3 00:03:45 Right. I would say there's a 99. <inaudible> the whole thing. Yeah. So,
Speaker 2 00:03:55 So, so you have to remember with Paul, you have to remember the John that God gave the apostles certain experiences and abilities. They had the ability to signs, wonders, miracles, all this stuff so that, um, their ministry as foundation building for the, for the church could be laid, could be validated. How do you know whether or not you're a true apostle, a false apostle, um, well you, you can do signs, wonders, miracles, healings, all that kind of stuff. And, and this was another one of those things that I do think the apostles had a different, um, opportunity to see things. So why Paul, why John, why all of these prophets in the old Testament, because they're laying foundations, they are being used by do something to do something bigger than just, oh, I want to experience.
Speaker 4 00:04:34 And I think that, like, there's another significant piece of this, which is like, they're, they're calling not only in the time and place kind of historically, but also like in the physical location where they were the cultural location, where they were, I mean, just the level of demonic influence that existed in, uh, kind of the Greco Roman world. Um, these guys, Paul and John had to be like super spiritually equipped and had to like, and God worked through them and in them to show them things that kind of pulled back the curtain on reality so that they could write those things down for us to us.
Speaker 2 00:05:08 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how gracious of God to say, listen, you're going to be writing a bunch of letters and helping people understand things. And, and then also wouldn't you be tempted to give up at times? I mean, how many times is Paul beaten and everything else like that? Like, I think he was just the grace of God to say, you're going to have to go through a lot and I'm going to show you what you're waiting for, or what's waiting for you. So then he can write, no eye has seen, no ear has heard nor the heart. Imagine the heart of man imagined what God has prepared for those who love him. Why does he know that? How can he even write that? Right. And he writes it not with like, honestly not with faith. He writes with conviction in fact. And, um, and that's only because of the revelation. So to answer the question, uh, my, I would love to hear your position. I would say almost certainly not, but he could, but he won't, but
Speaker 3 00:05:54 I, I probably am maybe
Speaker 4 00:05:56 A L w less nines than you. So I was like maybe 98.9%. Like I think, I think there's a higher likelihood. In fact, there are, I think there are interesting things that happen even in, uh, places where you would see more significant demonic influence. So like, um, think about, uh, the middle east and the, just the level of the Spirit's work and, uh, Christians in that place to give visions of Jesus. How many Muslims who are there in those places come to Jesus? Not because somebody shared the gospel with them initially, not because, uh, somebody, you know, gave them a Bible. No, they came to Jesus because Jesus showed up to them in a dream. And they were like, oh goodness. Like, I guess I better go to the church in my town and ask somebody what this means.
Speaker 2 00:06:49 We're talking vision or dreams. I am, my probability is way, like what dreams lower on lower on dreams. But if we're talking literally
Speaker 3 00:06:59 Face to face, like face to face. Yeah. And that's legit, I'm going to say nine. Okay.
Speaker 4 00:07:03 Yeah. And I think I would be there with you to see S for an experience like what Paul had just, I think the likelihood is super duper low, but one less nine than I have one
Speaker 5 00:07:13 Lesson, for sure. Well,
Speaker 1 00:07:16 Thank you guys so much for that perspective. I appreciate you sharing that with us. So we would invite you to come back next time for another episode of serving Q and a, you can go to village, church, digital.org to find all of these episodes and more, we'll see you next time.
