Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 <inaudible> welcome
Speaker 1 00:00:07 To another episode of sermon Q and a I'm Vicki Basinger. And I'm sitting here with pastor Craig and pastor Michael, and we are talking through some questions from the sermon on July 11th, 2021, which was in the sermon series on the golden calf. So today I'm going to start with you, pastor Craig. We've got a good one for you, but first I want to define a couple of things. For those of you who are listening, we're going to be talking about vengeance today. And vengeance is a term used in the Bible, referring to the pouring out of wrath and wrath has always poured out on sin, sinners and substitutes. So today we're going to talk about, will God ever take vengeance on me? Well, it depends on
Speaker 0 00:00:45 Not me personally. I hope we
Speaker 2 00:00:48 Right. We, so in scripture, in scripture was language. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:00:54 The, uh, the wrath of God is going to be poured out, has been poured out. It's a regular concept in scripture, but in scripture it's always, uh, it always depends on who you are, how, how you've reacted to God. If you're a believer, no sin, no wrath gets poured out on you. If you are a non-believer I, you know, I'd be a little bit in the spirit of, in trepidation. Yeah. Um, because God's wrath is always poured out. Like you sat on sin centers or substitutes, uh, sin because, uh, God is angry with sin. Sin has ruined what he has made. Sin has destroyed the image of God and his people. Uh, sin has ruined creation so much that it groans under the weight of it. Constantly. We see that in our world with the most recent collapse of this, this building, things like these are not supposed to happen.
Speaker 3 00:01:43 Um, and so our sin, the sin that has plagued this world that we brought into this place has plagued what God has made. Good. So God's wrath is poured out against the sin sinners because those who reject God's ways are, um, are choosing their sin rather than God they're choosing, like Romans one says to ignore the goodness of God and instead to embrace their sin. So if they take the side of the enemy, then eventually God's wrath will be poured out on them as well. And then substitutes because, um, Jesus of course hung on the cross and he was the one that took our sin for us. And so like the scapegoat of the old Testament, Jesus became our scapegoat.
Speaker 1 00:02:27 So having all of that sin put on him actually turned him into that substitute. So we kind of talked about the clarity on that, you know, talking about sin and centers, but also that one substitute that we had, um, which is Jesus Christ. So pastor Michael, if we, as Christians don't experience, God's wrath, pastor Craig referenced, you know, that building falling in the Miami area just recently, what is it that we are experiencing? If it isn't God's wrath,
Speaker 4 00:02:53 I would put them in three categories. The one would just be like, for example, what is the month right now? It is July thousand 21. What did the building in Miami
Speaker 5 00:03:00 Fall? Was it the end of June? Beginning of
Speaker 4 00:03:03 July. And so number one is just going to be the natural effects of a fallen world to get everybody, whether it's a building collapsing, whether it's our body's decaying. And so that's, that's less wrath than it is repercussions of living in this fallen world. And it's interesting because, uh, people want to get mad at God for that. And yet this is just the natural course of decay that happens everywhere. So the first thing people are experiencing that they might confuse her wrath. If you're a believer, which if you're a believer again, you never experienced God's wrath. I'll put on Jesus for you and your place would be just the effects of sin. Number two, and this is hard for people, but I think it's really important is we experienced collateral damage when God pours his wrath out on people. So if we talk about wrath in two categories, let's call it little w wrath and big w wrath.
Speaker 4 00:03:50 The big w wrath capital w is wrath. That is in hell forever. And that is the, for those who have rejected, Jesus, God pours out the fullness of his wrath eternally. So that's big w but there are a small w wrath, which is, um, God responding to sin and sinners and punishing them here. And now it could be in small ways and larger ways, but it's still this side of, of judgment. And whenever God does that, there is always collateral damage. And that bothers people. I, I understand that, but in America we have this notion of independence, autonomy, and freedom that basically says I can do what I want when I want, how I want. But the reality is in this world, the real world, everything I, you, we do affects everybody to some degree or another. So this idea that it's just me, myself and I in this world and that my decisions have no consequences is actually kind of ridiculous.
Speaker 4 00:04:45 So you think about, let's say you have a father and that father goes and murder somebody. And, and part of the wrath of God is going to be what happens internally to him. And it's also going to be him going to jail. And if that father has, let's say us four children, well, those children didn't do anything, but they are collateral damage in that. And so I could imagine that child saying, you know, God, why are you punishing me? And God isn't actually punishing the child, but this is collateral damage because what I do personally impacts multiple people around me. And then when I, if I'm not a believer, when God's more than discipline, when his anger is poured out on me and his right justice for what I've done, there will be collateral damage. So I think a lot of people there's experience, number one, just the, this is a fallen world and that happens buildings fall. And that's terrible happened in Jesus' day with the tower salami fell and killed. I think it was like 18 people. And their question did, Jesus was who sent. And he was like, nobody. Yeah. Right. That's not the point. It just, it felt, you know, so th the last one, um, and this is if you're a Christian. Yeah. Can I
Speaker 3 00:05:50 Just tap on that please? Yeah. It's interesting. Part of the wrath of God in Romans one is basically God removes his hand. That's holding back sin. Sin has a tendency to cut. Well, it exists to destroy. So it destroys everything at touch. Everybody touches. It it'll make you feel great the whole time, but ultimately the end is destruction. Romans one says that basically, sometimes God just moves his hand back. And when that happens, it says in there that God gives them over. So the natural flow of sin, when we engage in, it might seem like the wrath of God, but we might not be appreciating the grace of God. That's holding back what could happen. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 4 00:06:26 Yeah. I mean, that's really, I think that's a genius concept. Well, it's God's but you articulated it, but the idea that if you're experiencing decay anywhere around you, whether it, who knows whether or not like God had been slowing that decay down, whether it's internal, whether it's a building or something, so nations. Oh my goodness. I mean, how bad could America have been? Yep. Had God's restraining hand not been on it. How bad could it be if he releases his restraining hand and we've seen this throughout history. So if you're a Christian you're experienced in this number one is, um, I might just be experiencing the effects of sin in this world. Number two, I might be experiencing collateral damage. Uh, if you're Christian, number three, you might actually just be experiencing the discipline of God. A good dad, disciplines. His kids and discipline is not wrath. And discipline is out a heart of love for your Christ-likeness. And so, yes, your life might be hard and it might be because of sin. It might be because of somebody else's discipline or punishment, it might be because God's punishing you, but that's different than wrath, all wrath. Um, for sin, if you're a believer has been poured out on Jesus as your substitute in your place. And if you're not a Christian then UN unless you trust in Christ, um, when you die, the fullness, the capital w wrath will be poured out on you verse
Speaker 3 00:07:43 To go along with that, Hebrews 12, that the concept of discipline is a re read in scripture so that we don't wonder about this. Like what in the world is going on. Yeah. And leave it to the pastor to read Hebrews 12, seven for it is discipline that you, it is for discipline. You have to endure. God is treating you as sons for what son is there, whom his father does not discipline. And those whom God loves he disciplines. It's right. All there. And there's 12.
Speaker 1 00:08:06 And we're so grateful for God's word to always go back to it and find all of this inspiration
Speaker 2 00:08:11 Or else. We'd be wondering a lot, like what is happening, hitting the tower fall.
Speaker 5 00:08:16 Why am I being disciplined? Well, thank
Speaker 1 00:08:19 You guys so much for helping us process that we invite you to join us next time for our next episode of serving CUNY. See you then.
